Modern Money Doughnuts is a weekly podcast about Modern Monetary Theory and ecological economics.  Gabrielle Bond and Steven Hail explore the relationship between The Deficit Myth and Doughnut Economics, with the help of a variety of guests.

 Modern Money Doughnuts

Dr Matthew Rimmer on the Right to Repair


Professor Matthew Rimmer is an expert in intellectual property and innovation law at the Queensland University of Technology. Matthew has recently written about the Right to Repair movement and how we must do more to incentivise the repair and re-use of existing products to move towards something like a circular economy.



Con Michalakis on MMT and founding Modern Money Lab


Our guest this week is Con Michalakis. Con is the Chief Investment Officer for Statewide Superannuation, South Australia’s biggest retirement pension fund. He is also the Chair of Modern Money Lab. We will ask Con about how he came to understand MMT, and about his role in launching our suite of postgraduate courses with Torrens University.

Dr Dirk Ehnts: MMT is the right compass


In this episode we talked to Dr Dirk Ehnts, the leading European modern monetary theorist. Dirk recently published a paper titled Modern Monetary Theory: The Right Compass for Decision-Making. We asked him about what motivated him to write this paper and about its content.



Dr Kate Wylie: Climate Medicine


Dr. Kate Wylie is the founder of Climate Medicine, an organisation dedicated to treating the health effects of climate change, to finding ways to reduce harm and to protect the health of humankind and of our planet. Dr. Wylie has completed the Climate Reality Leadership program with Al Gore and is a member of Doctors for the Environment Australia.

Dr Mark Diesendorf: Civilisation 2.0


Professor Mark Diesendorf is an expert in renewable energy. We discussed how we can plan for a future that is ecologically sustainable and socially just. He has a long standing interest in ecological economics.

We also asked Mark about his upcoming book, Civilisation 2.0, on planetary boundaries and our energy transition.

Paul Willey, climate campaigner


In this week’s show we talked to South Australian activist Paul Willey about a campaign for our state to adopt stronger clean energy targets, more sustainable land use and biodiversity protection: in other words, living within the doughnut.

“Each one teach one” – Activist Dr Tori Wade


Dr Tori Wade is a retired psychologist, medical researcher and a pioneer of e-health. She is founding member of the Sustainable Prosperity Action Group and she regularly gives talks to community groups about Modern Monetary Theory.

We asked Tori about what it’s like to give talks and how anyone can take up the challenge.

Phil Lawn explains Ecological Economics


Professor Phil Lawn talked to us about his educational work relating to Ecological Economics, Sustainable Development and Real-World Economics. He is a pioneer of the Genuine Progress Indicator (GPI) as an indicator of social well-being, and one of Australia’s leading ecological and MMT economists.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Why Steve Keen is running for the Senate


On 23rd March Gabrielle and Steven spoke to Professor Steve Keen. Steve is one of the world’s very best economists. He will soon be standing as a candidate for the Senate in Australia’s federal election, and we asked him, why?

We also spoke about The New Liberals policy platform to fix record household debt and housing affordability, and calling attention to the ridiculous assumptions that neoclassical economists make when advising the IPCC.

Special: interview with Stephanie Kelton


Gabrielle and Steven catch up with Professor Stephanie Kelton to discuss her New York Times best-selling book, The Deficit Myth.

This interview was originally recorded on 24th February 2021.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Rethinking Capitalism in Hobart


Steven and Gabrielle talk about their Rethinking Capitalism weekend discussion groups and their upcoming trip to Tasmania. In Rethinking Capitalism, we cover many topics including the deficit myth, a Job Guarantee, sustainability and the doughnut, inequality, grey corruption and international trade.

Dr Sherry Wise joins us again


Our return guest this week is Dr Sherry Wise. Sherry is a Senior Economist with the US Department of Agriculture, as well as a KRTD regular. She is also an expert in environmental economics.

We’ll continue our conversation about climate change and it’s impact on farming and food production and what could be done differently.

Randeep Ramesh from The Guardian UK


Gabrielle Bond and Steven Hail spoke with Randeep Ramesh, award-winning journalist and Chief Leader Writer on The Guardian (the world’s leading progressive newspaper) about Modern Monetary Theory, politics and Post Keynesian economics, among other things.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Postgraduate courses coming soon!


Steven Hail talks to Gabie about his reasons for leaving an ‘Ivy League’ university and what he and Phil Lawn are planning to do to further MMT and ecological economics education at Torrens University.

This week we are one step closer to being able to offer postgraduate courses including Masters and PhD qualifications in MMT and ecological economics: the two essential elements needed to create a sustainable and prosperous future for people and the planet.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Sherry Wise on what impacts inflation


Dr Sherry Wise is a Senior Economist with the US Department of Agriculture, as well as a KRTD regular. She is also an expert in both environmental economics and what in the US is called anti-trust policy but is often called competition policy elsewhere.

We spoke about the pandemic, Joe Biden, and how Sherry would change the US if she was president.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Kairin van Sweeden: MMT & climate activist


This week on Modern Money Doughnuts, we ask Kairin van Sweeden, Executive Director of Modern Money Scotland, to explain why it is vital for an independent Scotland to have a currency-issuing government, about her campaign for a Scottish job guarantee and about what motivated her and others to take the UK government to court over fossil fuel subsidies last December.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Phil Lawn’s Genuine Progress Indicator


Professor Philip Lawn of Torrens University is the world’s leading ecological modern monetary theorist and one of the pioneers of a statistic called the Genuine Progress Indicator (GPI).

In the first of a series of interviews with Phil, we will talk about the role the GPI could play in guiding policy makers towards a just and sustainable economy.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Maren Poitras on Finding the Money


Maren Poitras is an Associate Producer with Codebreaker Films. Her current film in production, FINDING THE MONEY, won the Audience Award at DocLands film festival DocPitch 2021. FINDING THE MONEY is a movie about Modern Monetary Theory and some of its leading practitioners. We will talk to Maren about what motivated her to make the movie, about its content, and about the process of making it and when we can expect to see the finished movie.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Fadhel Kaboub talks inflation


Our guest Professor Fadhel Kaboub answers these questions: what is inflation, what causes it, what doesn’t cause it and why has the inflation rate spiked in the USA and some other countries (not all – much less so in Australia and virtually not at all in Japan)? What are the best ways of managing inflation pressure points? What links the present inflation scare to the barriers to a Green New Deal and the problem of building a distributive and regenerative economy.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

Introducing Modern Money Doughnuts


Modern Money Doughnuts – an international show about modern monetary theory and ecological economics. What have doughnuts to do with modern money? Quite a lot, as it turns out.

Gabrielle Bond and Steven Hail explore the relationship between The Deficit Myth and Doughnut Economics, and explain why their show is named Modern Money Doughnuts.

Click here for audio only file (with thanks to Activist #MMT)

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Keep up to date with the latest events and offerings from Modern Money Lab. We are based in Adelaide, South Australia, but we will be programming a wide range online and face-to-face events and talks in Adelaide and other major Australian cities.